an absolute word tart! ([info]schemingreader) wrote,
@ 2006-01-28 20:48:00
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Current mood: exhausted
Entry tags:meta

Meta on the fabulousness of fandom for [info]snegurochka_lee
I made some comments to [info]snegurochka_lee's journal in a sort of sardonic shorthand, and she asked me to expand on my thoughts there. So I am doing so, with a more earnest tone.

Something Good About Fandom


“Fellowship is heaven, and lack of fellowship is hell; fellowship is life, and lack of fellowship is death; and the deeds that ye do upon the earth, it is for fellowship's sake that ye do them." William Morris

Fandom subverts the dominant cultural paradigms of audience passivity, challenging mass media hegemonic discourse by encouraging individual creativity.

Take for example, the massive Harry Potter fandom in which I am a participant, since it's the largest and most obvious manifestation of this phenomenon. When Jo Rowling wrote her first Harry Potter book, we were all thinking like Muggles. That is, we thought: "Here's a nice book for children that adults can enjoy, too." We didn't think: "Oh, look, another franchise opportunity for Harry Potter movies, t-shirts, calendars, video games, figurines..."

I'm sure Jo isn't sorry that her lovely little book became an international media phenomenon, but it does do something negative to our experience as readers. Between the movies and the media images, we are left with an ultra-canonical reading, a single way to interpret a book. Indeed, to some extent, a single way to interpret the experience of reading. When you write stories that recast the Harry Potter characters and plot, you enter into the process of interpretation and take the reins of the story into your own hands.

Just think what you are messing with when you write stories about television programs. The whole medium is designed to keep you salivating for hamburgers and weight-loss programs. You aren't buying the messages of enforced passive consumption of entertainment when you decide that you can use a shared audience experience as a stage on which to create. I don't participate in any TV fandoms, but I think they are in some respects the most revolutionary thing going.

You might think: "Oh, we are ripping off someone else's characters, taking their intellectual property." Take a long view, though. Look at the King Arthur stories and the spin-offs they spawned in the eleventh century. People all over Europe were retelling the stories of the Knights of the Round Table. The whole problem with mass media is that it makes artists' livelihoods contingent on killing their art. It used to be that songwriters sold their sheet music, not their recorded performances. We have commodified the entire experience of making art. In some respect, fan fiction and fan art stand against all of that.

Fandom provides a framework for women to praise each other's creativity in a shared mass cultural context, while overthrowing the supremacy of that context and privileging our own readings.

One thing that I particularly like about fandom is that most, though clearly not all, of the writers and artists are female. I want to add here that as I am positing fandom as a sort of model of feminist community, that I do like the inclusion of male writers and artists in it. We include male creators and promote and enjoy their creative efforts, but don't necessarily privilege their vision, and that seems just perfect and right on to me. I love the thought of a non-separatist women's community. I also notice that there are writers in nearly every age group, though most of the stories I read are by female writers between ages 18 and 50. I see these women encouraging each other to write.

I was traumatized by my experiences in a college creative writing program. Though I have written nearly every kind of non-fiction, I did not think anyone would want to read my fiction. So I didn't write any fiction—for about twenty years. When I started reading fan fiction, I saw that writers had formed communities to issue prompts and challenges. People were providing the equivalent of a gigantic creative writing workshop. The only thing missing was the sense of competitiveness and bitchiness. Now that I have taken the plunge and become a participant, I can see that people are even more generous than I thought. We write for each other. We provide each other with excuses to write, we write love notes to each other for writing, we just encourage the daylights out of each other.

Fan artists are if anything, even more giving.

Every piece of fan fiction is not equally worthwhile. It's not all great art. But if fandom does anything, it encourages people to write and create, to hone their skills. In fandom you can cut your chops. When I see the work that young women in their late teens and early 20s are producing in fandom, I am ecstatic. I know that by providing a place to practice and eager, appreciative readers, we are making writers. We are writing midwives, whispering "Okay, now—push!"

Fandom creates multi-generational communities of women who work together to overthrow patriarchal suppression of women's erotic impulses.

Yes, this is my fancy justification of all the porn: here goes. We don't all agree about what constitutes a feminist sexuality, a sexuality that privileges women's experience. For some of us, anything that does not look like a romance novel will do, and for others, it has to be romantic or it's ugly. It must look odd to some people that a big part of fandom is women writing about men having sex with other men, but some of us find that a big turn-on. We also write about a variety of sexual practices and acts, performed by many different types of pairings. There are even some people who write from an asexual perspective.

We don't have agreement about what's good sex, nor about what's good politics around sex. We have constant discussions and arguments about whether we should be writing or reading stories that eroticize rape or sexual abuse. I think these are fraught issues. But here's what I like: we are writing about what we think is hot, we are trying to turn each other on, and we are talking about it. We are also giving each other positive feedback for writing about our sexual fantasies. That is incredible! Where else do we have that? Television talk shows and mass-produced erotica/pornograph/romance media don't provide this level of honesty and creativity.

Though we don't all agree about what it should look like, fandom provides a model for pro-sex feminism, for women reclaiming control over their sexuality, minds first. I really love the model of having people post warnings at the tops of their stories. It shows we have figured out, at least to some small degree, that we don't all feel sexuality the same way. We get that everyone is different, and can encourage more than one view of sexuality. Our whole vocabulary of kinks and squicks is a sophisticated acknowledgement of the varieties of human sexual experience.

I have a bit more on the new meanings I've found in slash fiction, but I think I'll save that for another post.



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[info]busaikko
2006-01-29 02:47 am UTC (link)
* cough * You are, of course, going to submit this to [info]hp_essays, desho? Because, simply, you must....

Agree, and agree, and agree.... The only negative thing about writing fan fiction is that, of course, it is not part of the commercial marketplace. Where in the age of 'zines there was a natural upward progression from zines to SFF magazines to anthologized short stories and thence to books, one must separate from the fanfiction community (and one's dependence thereupon) to become a 'real' (i.e. socially sanctioned through the making of money) author. Not that I yearn for the community to become commercialized, of course. But in terms of recognition, I can't count the number of people who I've read and thought, 'Yes, I'd have paid to read that...' or, 'More people should know about/see this!"

But as a method for the honing of storytellers, of nurturing talents, of mutual suppor, the community excells. I can think of many female SFF writers who discuss the vital role of their (mostly) female friends who beta-read and gave advice (c.f. Bujold, essay in "Dreamweaver's Dilemna"). As odd as it may seem to passive modern TV viewers, all myths and legends, all nursery stories and fables were not the creation of single authors, but were created, embellished, changed, and evolved by thousands of storytellers, many of whom I suspect of being mothers, sisters, and other nurturing women. "Tell me one about a witch," Small Child would beg, "and an apple," and the story would begin to spin.... Here's one of my favourite quotes (from who-knows-where on the internet):

Fanfiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage done in a system where contemporary myths are owned by corporations instead of owned by folk. (Henry Jenkins)

/stilted writing style. * returns the word 'thereupon' to its dusty box *

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 08:26 am UTC (link)
As odd as it may seem to passive modern TV viewers, all myths and legends, all nursery stories and fables were not the creation of single authors, but were created, embellished, changed, and evolved by thousands of storytellers, many of whom I suspect of being mothers, sisters, and other nurturing women.

Yes. Though the fan fiction process is not precisely the same as the process of creating folk art, it has a lot in common. A big part of what I wanted to say!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]musigneus
2006-01-29 03:49 am UTC (link)
I see [info]busaikko beat me to it; I was planning to ask if you're familiar with [info]hp_essays! I hope you will consider posting this there too - it was very interesting, and you made some excellent points. And I think We provide each other with excuses to write, we write love notes to each other for writing, we just encourage the daylights out of each other. is a lovely way to sum up that part of the fandom experience!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 08:44 am UTC (link)
Thanks! I did post a link at [Unknown LJ tag] on your suggestions.

I like writing "meta", though it was difficult not to go with my normal academic five or seven paragraph essay format. Since I'm really here to write fiction, I will have to stop myself from writing too many essay thingies. I need to put time into writing fiction. Though I really do want to share with the world my insights into why women like to read and write slash....bwa ha ha ha!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]scrtkpr
2006-01-29 05:14 am UTC (link)
Excellent essay! I'm not familiar with hp_essays myself, but if it contains more like this one you've written, I'm definitely going to have to check it out.

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[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 08:46 am UTC (link)
Thanks! I did know that site because of daily_snitch and hogwarts_today.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ptyx
2006-01-29 10:27 am UTC (link)
Great article! Thanks for sharing your ideas with us.

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[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 12:44 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for coming to read!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]gunderpants
2006-01-29 10:53 am UTC (link)
I think this is a very interesting post you've made. One thing that I've noticed about the fandom communities is how great it really is for young and practicing writers: with fan fiction, there really is that built-in readership that a lot of original fiction might not get, and the support and criticism you get from people in the community is invaluable. I've probably learnt more about writing from my betas, readers, reviewers and friends online than I have from English classes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 12:49 pm UTC (link)
I've probably learnt more about writing from my betas, readers, reviewers and friends online than I have from English classes.

It's unfortunate, isn't it, that we have more time for each other than our teachers have for us as students? Fandom is just better structured than school.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]author_by_night
2006-01-29 12:57 pm UTC (link)
Good, but you forgot to include guy fandomers. ;) Yes, there are some... not as many as girls, admittedly, but I know a few guy fandom people.

Honestly, with the sexual one... I hope that's not always the case, because there's some pretty strange porn fics out there. I really hope nobody has the impulse to rape or be raped, for instance - yes, there's fics where that's a good thing, and some where the rape isn't considered rape at all (by the author). So yeah... that one doesn't include "violent/underage sex is okay" fics, right?

I do agree with you on friendships. :) I have a few very close friendships from fandom.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cmwinters
2006-01-29 01:23 pm UTC (link)
A number of people, men and women both, do, in fact, the fantasy to be raped, although I believe in most cases, it's the *romanticized idea of it*, rather than the actuality.

She didn't "forget" to include guy fandomers, she deliberately excluded them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]beyond_pale, 2006-01-29 03:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]essentialjoy, 2006-01-30 01:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-29 04:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-29 04:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alchemia, 2006-01-30 04:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 04:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alchemia, 2006-01-30 06:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 06:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alchemia, 2006-01-30 07:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 07:41 am UTC

[info]beyond_pale
2006-01-29 02:54 pm UTC (link)
wooo-hooo!

Lovely; I'm actually three paragraphs into my first attempt at writing fanfic; it is slash; and this is fabulously encouraging to read now.

Even thugh I have a bachelor's degree in creative writing, I've always been horrible at writing prose (my honors thesis and portfolio was poetrycentric), but this is coming easy. I figure, I've won so many awards and honors for "erotic poetry" that it will be fun to translate to another medium. And plus, I do feel I can raise the bar in fanfic quality without being reduced to betaing this way.

Besides, my slashOTP has no decent fic! I will try to fix that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 04:47 pm UTC (link)
Don't hesitate to beta and to be beta'ed. You can learn a lot from these writers. My husband's MFA in Creative Writing (also concentrating in poetry) didn't give him the expertise to help me edit fiction. It takes practice.

I look forward to reading your fic!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]beyond_pale, 2006-01-29 06:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-29 07:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beyond_pale, 2006-01-29 10:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-29 10:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]imkalena, 2006-01-30 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 07:57 pm UTC

[info]snegurochka_lee
2006-01-29 02:54 pm UTC (link)
Oh good, I'm so glad to see this!

The challenge to mass media hegemonic discourse is fascinating to me, especially in this age where mass media has come to encompass such a wide variety of media, including the internet and electronic messaging, yet, IMO, the mainstream print and TV media has never been more stagnant and uninvolved in what's going on in other communication fora.

The internet and online cultures/fandoms still seem to carry some sort of stigma, it seems to me, despite clearly being a favoured communications outlet for millions of people worldwide.

The give-and-take interactions between creators (fiction, art, etc) and consumers online is also so interesting. Instant feedback on a project, and dialogue with readers, changes the way writing (and The Writer) is perceived, intellectually and culturally.

One thing that I particularly like about fandom is that most, though clearly not all, of the writers and artists are female.

In response to the comments above, you have neither forgotten about male fans, nor deliberately excluded them. You have chosen to focus on women fans, and the community of women online. This is more than legitimate as a focus group for your arguments, IMO.

I agree with you on the value of the cross-generational and cross-skill level community of women writers and creators online. If I may take the feminist stance for a moment, we still live in a society (I do, at least) in which women's intellectual and creative endeavours are not supported, encouraged, or valued as highly as men's. The (relative) anonymity of online interactions frees a woman creator who may have difficulties joining a creative writing class, or submitting work under her real name to workshops or publishers, to post her work and receive feedback on it.

I'm reminded of Margaret Atwood's wonderful essay, "On Being a Woman Writer," written in the '80s but still apt today. Sexism is alive and kicking, and while online fandom is by no means perfect, you have made me feel much better about the community we have here. :)

Fandom creates multi-generational communities of women who work together to overthrow patriarchal suppression of women's erotic impulses.

Now this argument, as I told you before, is bloody brilliant. I can't believe I never really thought of it that way before, but it is an excellent point. I imagine most of us are still ashamed of what we do, to a degree. I know I am. There's a reason I don't want anyone in my RL to find out about my fandom or my porn, and that reason is judgement - which would come in the negative form. But this is a free space for us all to explore erotica and sexuality without condemnation from greater society.

Well, I'll stop there since you've said it all much better than I could have, and now I'm just nodding and agreeing with you. :) Thanks for this, and be sure to finish that slash essay - I'd love to see your thoughts on that. ♥

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]beyond_pale
2006-01-29 03:06 pm UTC (link)
wow, we just both encouraged people to discover Margaret Atwood simultaneously. ♥

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]snegurochka_lee, 2006-01-29 03:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beyond_pale, 2006-01-29 04:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]snegurochka_lee, 2006-01-29 10:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-29 05:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]eleventh_guard, 2006-01-29 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]imkalena, 2006-01-30 07:39 pm UTC

[info]amihan_811
2006-01-29 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Though we don't all agree about what it should look like, fandom provides a model for pro-sex feminism, for women reclaiming control over their sexuality, minds first.
With this line alone, I think you've perfectly articulated the phenomenon in a nutshell. Have you thought about linking this to [info]fanthropology as well?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 05:42 pm UTC (link)
Very kind of you, I'll look into that link. I wasn't really thinking of pimping this hither and yon, but I'm happy to have more people with whom to discuss it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]parsimonia
2006-01-29 05:02 pm UTC (link)
Look at the King Arthur stories and the spin-offs they spawned in the eleventh century. People all over Europe were retelling the stories of the Knights of the Round Table.

Something I've always thought is interesting about fanfiction is the obligatory "disclaimer". I mean, at what point is the fan creation allowed to be "claimed" or "owned" by the fan artist/fanfiction writer? (And I'm not even necessarily talking about, for instance, the possibility of a really successful fanfic writer publishing her/his work, but just having it recognized and respected as an artistic creation that cannot be attributed to JKR or whoever the original author/creator.

The King Arthur legends I guess are generally considered "public property" since they can't really be attributed to only one source. But there are exceptions to that... for example, Tom Stoppard wrote what one could technically term a "fanfiction play" about Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, two very minor characters in Hamlet. Also, there are tons of books that have spawned off of Dungeons & Dragons, which is really very much based on the world of Middle Earth which JRR Tolkien created.

Some fan artists in the HP community do commissions for money, and there don't seem to have been any lawyers knocking on their doors (that we know of). But it's unheard of for fanfiction writers to sell their work. I suppose part of the reason for that is there may not be as many people willing to buy it, considering it's so abundant and free. But what about an enormously popular ff writer, who's written longer fics, assembling them into a book for sale? You can probably imagine what kind of reaction that would cause.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 05:41 pm UTC (link)
I think it's okay that we can't sell our work. At least, that's what I think now! I like it that at least here, we are writing as though storytelling around a fire. Troubadours did what they did in the 11th cent. because there was no such thing as copyright though...

Of course, once I finish my crazy fan fic historical novel, I might change my mind about that! For now, it's liberating to know that I am only accountable to my readers.

(I loved Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, that's a fantastic example!)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2006-01-30 12:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-02-01 08:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2006-02-09 07:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-02-09 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2006-02-11 05:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-02-11 05:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]parsimonia, 2006-02-11 05:20 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-01-29 07:08 pm UTC

[info]catsintheattic
2006-01-29 05:03 pm UTC (link)
But if fandom does anything, it encourages people to write and create, to hone their skills. In fandom you can cut your chops. When I see the work that young women in their late teens and early 20s are producing in fandom, I am ecstatic. I know that by providing a place to practice and eager, appreciative readers, we are making writers. We are writing midwives, whispering "Okay, now—push!"

That's exactly how I felt when I first made contact with the HP fandom some months ago. It's such a rich culture and a very generous place to be.

I also spontaneously decided to friend you. :-) Hope you don't mind.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 05:38 pm UTC (link)
I'm glad you liked this and delighted that you friended me. (You know, "friend" just means "subscribe"--my subscription policy is open!)

Have you started writing yet? do you want encouragement? Go go go!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]catsintheattic, 2006-01-29 06:10 pm UTC
here via snegurochka_lee
[info]drusillas_rain
2006-01-29 05:14 pm UTC (link)
brilliant essay!

*memories*

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Re: here via snegurochka_lee
[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Thanks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]thesnapelyone
2006-01-29 07:35 pm UTC (link)
I was so glad to see this! I agree completely. It reminded me of my first thoughts when I got into the HP fandom here on LJ - I was so surprised to see how supportive everyone was, and the range of ages and abilities, and I found it very exciting and empowering. Which is why I'm still here, a few years later. *L*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 07:52 pm UTC (link)
So pleased to have struck a chord with you.

See, you aren't wasting your time, you are taking your part in the revolution...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Here via Ptyx
[info]djin7
2006-01-29 07:56 pm UTC (link)
I love this, and you hit on many of the things that have floated through my conscience about the writers and artists here. I really like the overall positivity of your points, and we need more of that. Fandom is indeed, a wonderful thing.

Thank you for sharing!

Cheers!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Here via Ptyx
[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 08:21 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for reading!

It is hard to be positive about the things about which people disagree. I think I want to keep at it, to develop some kind of explicit consensus around how to handle those issues.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]femmenerd
2006-01-29 10:21 pm UTC (link)
Here via [info]fanthropology.

I'm glad that you posted this there because it is so applicable in a general sense. And it's nice for me to see considering the number of brushfires that have been flaring up in my fandoms recently. Although I don't let the wankfests mess with my reasons for loving fandom, which basically exactly coincide with what you've written here.

Despite the fact that they are not alwasy realized, fandom has utopian possibilities, or rather options.

A lifelong feminist and active reader, being involved in fandom has changed how I interact with media AND how I think about women.

Though we don't all agree about what it should look like, fandom provides a model for pro-sex feminism, for women reclaiming control over their sexuality, minds first.

Here, here!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 10:36 pm UTC (link)

Despite the fact that they are not alwasy realized, fandom has utopian possibilities, or rather options.


Yes, it's important to say possibilities or options, because it's clear that we aren't there yet.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]femmenerd, 2006-01-29 10:42 pm UTC

[info]waterbird
2006-01-29 10:42 pm UTC (link)
We are writing midwives, whispering "Okay, now—push!"

I love this analogy. The fandom has certainly been instrumental in helping me find my way back to fiction writing. Like you, I was traumatised by past experiences. I still am not as confident as I know I should be - I agonize over my work and release very little to the public - but I'm working on changing that. The wonderfully supportive nature of the fandom makes me want to share more, write more, become the writer I think I can be.

Thanks for a great essay.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 11:23 pm UTC (link)
Great! I'm glad you are writing again, too. I look forward to reading your work!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]yourlibrarian
2006-01-29 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Where else do we have that?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on why that does or doesn't happen with the female friends in our offline lives?

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[info]schemingreader
2006-01-29 11:20 pm UTC (link)
I know some people have had those conversations, the ones in which you reveal all your fantasies. I'm trying to remember if I had them with other women, even in college. Also, right now most of my friendships are through my Jewish community, and I'm trying to think, when would we talk about sexual fantasies? Between the blessing over the wine and the blessing over the bread? Uh, no.

I think it might be a mechanics thing, that online we aren't precisely face to face? In fandom there is also an element of Play with a capital P, of experimentation. You know how people can pair off a character with more than one partner, give him or her more than one reality?

We can let fictional characters have all kinds of sexual experiences that we might not even want to have. We might just want to think about them.

It causes enough strife in our online community, clarifying that this is play. Imagine trying to tell your IRL friends, "I like to read stories about (fill in the kink or squick) though I am not actually interested in acting them out!"

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yourlibrarian, 2006-01-30 12:56 am UTC
I agree with a lot of the things you say here...
[info]gwynfyd
2006-01-30 01:35 am UTC (link)
However:

"I was traumatized by my experiences in a college creative writing program...So I didn't write any fiction—for about twenty years. When I started reading fan fiction, I saw that writers had formed communities to issue prompts and challenges. People were providing the equivalent of a gigantic creative writing workshop. The only thing missing was the sense of competitiveness and bitchiness."

No competitiveness or bitchiness? I think there is far more competitiveness and bitchiness in fandom than you'd find in any creative writing course. I'd never take part in an online fandom creative writing community because of this.

And as for friendship and support? From other fan fiction writers? Hardly. Maybe 5% are willing to offer anything like this. I'm fortunate to know a few of them.

The fan fiction community doesn't encourager creativity. It pushes writers to write the sort of stories their readers want. That's why so many stories read like carbon copies of each other. At one time, I thought it encouraged creativity too, but I learned better.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I agree with a lot of the things you say here...
[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 02:12 am UTC (link)
I'm sorry to hear about your negative experiences. It's quite possible that I picked a good subset of the community when I chose to write slash. I definitely see the organizers in the communities working hard and sneakily behind the scenes to create a positive atmosphere. I mean, check this out: the mod in the community set up a feedback challenge the month before all the Secret Santa fics were posted. Is that clever or what? She gets everyone in the habit of leaving nice comments right before they all post stories.

It's also possible that I had an exceptionally bad creative writing program director. All right, that's not just a possibility!

I get what you mean about writing for the audience. Fan fiction is genre fiction. My own experience here thus far has been that people are willing to read some stories that I think step outside what people ordinarily write.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I agree with a lot of the things you say here... - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-30 03:22 am UTC
Re: I agree with a lot of the things you say here... - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 03:32 am UTC
Re: I agree with a lot of the things you say here... - [info]imkalena, 2006-01-30 08:03 pm UTC
Re: I agree with a lot of the things you say here... - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-30 08:26 pm UTC
Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-30 02:24 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-30 08:10 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-30 08:47 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 08:59 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-30 09:08 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-30 09:11 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 09:14 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-30 09:19 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 09:43 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]imkalena, 2006-01-31 05:44 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-31 07:38 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-31 07:55 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]imkalena, 2006-01-31 10:45 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-31 11:44 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]imkalena, 2006-02-01 01:16 am UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]imkalena, 2006-01-30 08:33 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-30 08:57 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]imkalena, 2006-01-31 12:50 am UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-31 07:24 am UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]imkalena, 2006-01-31 03:39 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-31 07:11 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-31 07:45 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-31 07:37 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-31 07:46 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-01-31 07:48 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]imkalena, 2006-02-01 04:56 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]auctasinistra, 2006-02-01 08:15 pm UTC
Re: Here via DS - [info]imkalena, 2006-02-02 03:58 am UTC

[info]amihan_811
2006-01-30 01:38 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I think it's the facelessness of the online fandom community that is very liberating since it allows a measure of freedom to express fantasies that are often taboo in RL conversations.
Which is why fandom is so cool. As an imagined community, it's a great space for self-exploration without all the excess baggage of fear, shame, etc. we would have to encounter if we chose to share these conversations in RL. In general, it seems RL would just get in the way of creativity ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 02:21 am UTC (link)
The next challenge is to figure out how to take what you get from fandom and bring it into original writing and art. I know I'm not ready for that just yet!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]cruisedirector
2006-01-30 03:33 am UTC (link)
I can't read anything in this language, as I vowed when I got out of academia not to read essays on feminism written in critical theory language that is itself both exclusionary and heavily invested in the patriarchal and capitalist institution of academic discourse. *g* You've read Jenkins and Penley I assume?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 03:59 am UTC (link)
My tongue is firmly in my cheek whenever I write in the kind of language I used in my headings. The word "hegemonic" sounds particularly amusing that way.

Nope, I still haven't read Jenkins and Penley, even though you were so kind as to recommend them months ago. I'll do it, I'll start using the interlibrary loan at the public library. I've been busy...reading so much slash!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 02:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 02:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 03:24 pm UTC
Breaking comment for LJ's sake - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 03:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]flaxenescapee, 2006-01-30 06:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 02:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]woman_ironing, 2006-01-30 05:44 pm UTC

[info]sophinisba
2006-01-30 04:01 am UTC (link)
I'm glad you put up the link on [info]fanthropology and hope you'll do so again when you get to that post about slash. I've only been in fandom for a short time but I really feel like the friendship and support of LJ friends has changed my life. And the porn, oh my, yes, that too.

Hurrah for the recognition that "everyone is different, and can encourage more than one view of sexuality."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 05:39 am UTC (link)
Thanks for coming to read. Yes, I suppose I should post a link to the slash essay as well.

I'm working on articulating something more systematic about how to deal with our different views of sexuality.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]modillian
2006-01-30 05:31 am UTC (link)
*jumps up and down clapping and cheering* Oh, thank you, this is wonderful. I love how you've broken it down into pieces I can understand, and in language that makes analytical sense. I appreciate fandom in the same ways you do, and you say it much better than I. Yay! *throws up arms, dances, sprinkles confetti* I love how interactive fandom is, and how it encourages everyone to contribute something. This cannot be a bad thing.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 05:38 am UTC (link)
That's great! I'm glad you weren't put off by my use of the word "hegemonic." Happy too that you found my headings helpful.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dora_mcallister
2006-01-30 05:54 am UTC (link)
Well done. I like this articulation of what the fandom is to me. It is a very pro-feminist micro-cosm of what the world can be.

I find you point about fiction workshops interesting. I'm in my first one at college right now and it took me to my senior year to get the courage. I get critqued for the first time next week and I'm nervous. Especially since the instructor has this attitude that no story we'll see is without fault. And while that's probably true to some extent, it's not very encouraging. Also, I want to write children's literature, so I think it'll be writing that the other members of the class are not expecting. At the very least I'll always have the fandom to falll back on just for the love of writing, regardless of the goal of that peice of writing. Wish me luck!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 06:08 am UTC (link)
If the instructor has found faults in every other story, he will certainly find faults in yours. One thing to keep in mind: some teachers are harsher with people they believe to have more talent. I don't like this as a pedagogical philosophy, but it's good to know when you are being critiqued. You can use those criticisms to polish your story so that you can submit it for publication.

Not everyone has as bad an experience in Creative Writing as I did. Some people have good experiences. You might be one. Go, champ! You can do it!

People who write children's literature are my heroes. I never imagined how immersed in picture books I would be when I became a mom. (I've written a bit about my favorite children's authors on this LJ.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]flaxenescapee
2006-01-30 06:34 am UTC (link)
You are simply phenomenal, why have I not stumbled onto your path before now? May I now have the courtesy of friending you so that I shan't miss out on any more wonderful meta?

I am only nineteen, so it comes as a shock sometimes that all of what we do in fandom is unusual, never mind revolutionary (!), in any way. But great essays like this really bring it home that females in previous times were not allowed to do what we are doing now, and it's just so shocking to someone my age because I have never known a life otherwise and could never imagine it!
To bring up the subject of the HP fandom; On many occasions I have had the strange experience of many people who are unfamiliar with HP automatically assuming the author must be male. This I find baffling. It only further draws attention to the fact that many people still think with a patriarchal mindset, or have a narrow vantage-point on what women are creatively permited to do or capable of doing. And that..... really sucks.

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[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 06:48 am UTC (link)
What a courtly request! I think in general it's okay to subscribe to someone's journal, unless they have a policy that states otherwise. I sure hope so. I friended a bunch of the people who came to comment to this entry!

I wouldn't say that women in previous times were not allowed to do what we do in fandom. That's not exactly right. [info]busaikko pointed out that women were storytellers in the past. In a lot of cultures women were the first consumers and creators of formal fiction.

There are a lot of things about this current moment that are exciting, though.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]featherxquill
2006-01-30 01:48 pm UTC (link)
Word.

I know that wasn't a very in depth or intelligent response, but what you said is perfect.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 01:57 pm UTC (link)
Well, maybe it isn't a very extensive response, but it's so 1980s, it makes me feel a nostalgic glow.

Seriously, thanks for coming to read and leaving a positive comment.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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