an absolute word tart! ([info]schemingreader) wrote,
@ 2006-01-30 00:18:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: silly
Entry tags:meta

More meta--Thoughts on Women Writing Slash
This is the promised sequel to Something Good About Fandom, which I wrote for [info]snegurochka_lee. I couldn't figure out how to put everything I wanted to say into a single essay. This one has some mature content and is quite long, so I'm putting it behind an LJ cut.



Women Writing Slash: An Idiosyncratically Feminist Meditation


I take as my starting point in this essay that fandom provides women with a unique opportunity to explore our sexuality. In a previous essay, I put it this way: "Fandom creates multi-generational communities of women who work together to overthrow patriarchal suppression of women's erotic impulses."

I also believe that the sexual activities that people enjoy reading or writing about aren't necessarily the ones they enjoy doing or want to do. We have many reasons to write about sexual, or sexually charged, acts. Doing so accomplishes a lot of different things for us, creatively, politically and psychologically. I don't find all sexual desires are equally healthy, and I don't believe that every sexual activity deserves to be glorified. On the other hand, I don't think we should blame or praise people for what turns them on or what squicks them. I advocate that instead we choose to discuss what we like and why, and to analyze it, without putting each other down personally for tastes we don't share.

What I wonder is, why is slash, fiction about men in love with other men, so popular in fandom? Why do we women like to read about gay sex? I know we also like to write and read about heterosexual and lesbian couples; I see that femmeslash in particular is enjoying a surge in popularity. For me, as for other slashers, erotica about men having sex with other men is the most compelling stuff in fandom. Why is that? I have a few guesses.

Cocks (and other bits) and what we like about them

I assumed, when I first started thinking about this, that most women who read slash like to have sex with men. Now that I am more immersed in the world of slash, I see that this is not true. There are women who only like to have sex with other women who get a lot of enjoyment out of reading and writing slash. Nevertheless, many slash writers talk about how slash features "twice the cocks." What do we mean when we say this?

Penetration: physical and intellectual

One rather wonderful slash writer put it this way, "Why women write slash. Because long pointy things feel really good when you stick them in holes. *WHAT* holes are inconsequential." This is one of the wittier ways I've seen the "twice the cocks" argument articulated! As cute as it is, I don't think it covers the bases for everyone who likes slash.

It seems to me that some of us like the idea of penetration even more than the reality. There has been a lot of research showing that most women need some clitoral stimulation to have an orgasm. For some women, penetration is great, but some of us find it irrelevant or even unpleasant. As I have said above and forty zillion other times, what we like to do in bed is generally only tangentially related to what we like to read about other people doing. Perhaps we like to put ourselves in the place of the person doing the penetrating. If you have, as I have, read the many loving description in slash stories of how wonderful it feels to top, you know what I mean.

All of this is true. We like the thought of penetration, even if we don't like to do it, and we like thinking about topping and bottoming. Slash writers also write about other, non-penetrative sexual acts. What could be more sexy to our hypothetical "twice the cock" female reader than a description of frottage? Even though we have to pay attention to the primacy of penetration in sexual description, it's clearly not the only factor in the popularity of slash. (See, that's the example of keen intellectual penetration. Get it?)

Men's bodies are so vulnerable!

Whether we have sexual intimacy with men or not, most women know that men are more vulnerable to sexual arousal and pleasure than we are. The penis is external, and so men have to think about hiding their arousal. Our arousal is physically hidden; it's also been occluded by repeated society-wide decisions to withhold information about our bodies from women and men. Men have to learn how to hold back to stop themselves from having orgasms. Again, the sexist occlusion of obvious information about how women's bodies work has made that...not really a problem for us. We have to try to have orgasms, not to hold back from coming. Every social movement to try to spread information about women's bodies has encountered an equal and opposite reactive force. Though we have at least the same if not a greater capacity than men for experiencing sexual pleasure, their genitals are socially constructed to go off at the slightest touch.

When we project ourselves as readers into a slashy sex scene, we can imagine that we are helpless in the face of accurate sexual stimulation that feels great. Or we can imagine that we have secret knowledge of how another man's body works and can stimulate him in ways that are charged with erotic power. Yes, people write het scenes in which women come helplessly, but do you believe them? I don't. It's much easier to believe in the hyper-vulnerable penis, whether that is actually logical or not.

It's not that we have penis envy, exactly. Any woman who understands how her body can feel sexual pleasure knows that she has a good deal. Men can't have orgasm after orgasm like we can. But perhaps we envy the social presence of the penis. You don't need specialized knowledge to work a penis. Hard not to envy that!

It also seems right to say here that a lot of women (and men) have fantasies about either taking control or having control wrested from them in sexual situations. Sometimes we call these "rape fantasies" but I'm pretty sure they don't mean we want to be raped. Part of the enjoyment of the vulnerable penis is the sense that the man can't help getting aroused, can't help having an orgasm. It's a safe way to explore giving up control without actually having to write about rape. (Though people do also write non-con, which is a sort of fictionalized version of rape.)

Men's bodies are so sexy

I don't know about you, but I like other parts of men's bodies than their penises. Men have many sensitive places, many delicious places, on their bodies. In a sexist society in which women's bodies are perpetually objectified, we don't get much of a view of a man's body--especially not the bits that excite us. Slash writers love men's faces, the varieties of their facial hair. We like their chests, so different from ours. We like their body hair. We like how they smell. We like their voices.

For women who like men, slash can be so hot. It's not just two cocks, it's two men, with muscular arms, big hands and feet, hairy bodies, and deep growly voices. Slash eroticizes the whole of men's bodies, and does it from a woman's perspective. It's not what men imagine that women like, it's what women imagine that men like. We put ourselves in the place of a man who doesn't know that his body is sexy, and discovers it as he discovers another man. (To me, this is resonant with many lesbian coming-out narratives.)

Now I don't know what I think of the politics of eroticizing men's bodies. Are we objectifying men to the same extent that we are objectified in their porn about our bodies? I do sometimes worry about this. (Because worry is my middle name.) In some ways, slash writing feels more celebratory of men's physical diversity than porn does. Whether there is a feminist justification for it, slash eroticizes men's bodies in a delightful way.

The limits of canon

Another obvious reason that women in fandom write slash is that we don't identify with the female characters. We identify with the male characters, for a variety of reasons. Sometimes the original author has just put a lot more energy into the male characters, so they seem more real. Sometimes it's their characters.

In the Harry Potter fandom, we are actually relatively lucky. There are quite a few female characters with whom a fan fiction writer or artist could potentially identify. Unfortunately, most are school-aged. As a woman approaching forty, my feelings are complicated and my experiences varied. I am more likely to identify with Severus Snape or Remus Lupin than with Hermione Granger (Though if anyone was like Hermione, it was the young Schemingreader.) Even though Rowling is, like me, a mother, she writes Molly Weasley as an annoying noodge. I can't see her as a sexual being. (Though if Schemingreader resembles any HP character physically, it is the dumpy, middle-aged Molly Weasley.) So where do you go when you want to identify with the feelings of a character? To the male characters.

Is this a feminist response? Probably not. It doesn't liberate anyone for us to just identify with the male characters. Sometimes it's the best we can do, under the circumstances. You can consider as a way of mounting a critique against what popular culture thinks women are. I'm sure you could also say that it's deconstructing gender. At the heart of it, it's a sad thing.

Their sexuality, our sexuality—a mirror of Erised

When we write about men in relationships with other men, we are working out some of the issues in our own sexual relationships. Whether we sleep with women or men, we are socialized as women. One aspect of slash that is attractive is imagining relationships between men. To some extent these relationships are a distorted mirror of our own reality.

Bishounen, butch-femme and mpreg—let's make him be the girl for a change

One way we work out our own difficulties as women is by forcing male characters to take on feminine characteristics. In reality, some men do choose to transgress gender boundaries by cross dressing or adopting effeminate mannerisms. Slash writers go a lot further than that reality.

Some slash writers make one partner always submissive, always the bottom, and to some extent, feminine in appearance and affect. Taking cues from the Japanese yaoi comics, these slashers make either or both characters androgynous, or one of them into someone who is actually pretty in a girlish way.

One outlandish convention of slash is the male pregnancy story, or mpreg fic. When I first learned about mpreg, I was flabbergasted. It seems to me now that mpreg is a great way for people to work out their feelings about women's role in reproduction. On some psychological level, it makes no less sense for a man to be able to make a baby in his body than it does for a woman to be able to do it. (Of course, for those of us who have had actually had babies, it's hard to remember what that psychological moment was like.)

When we make male characters take on female roles, including some of the ultimately female roles of pregnancy, childbirth and nursing, it gives us the opportunity to work out the social ramifications of these roles for women. When you make a hyper-masculine character have a baby for his male partner, you get to express how you, too, as a woman, are dynamic, active, a fighter—even though there are these weird expectations on you about motherhood. When you make one partner the pretty one, you get to work on your own feelings about what it means to be pretty, or not.

We like gay men and we cannot lie

Another reason to slash characters has nothing to do with the erotics of their bodies or their sexual activity. Some slashers admire gay men and their subculture. They want to place characters in this milieu because it seems to resonate with their characterization.

There is something intense about people reaching across both male socialization and heavy taboos to find love. I guess this is slash for gay wedding junkies. (I'm definitely one.) In this mirror, we see ourselves as people with the courage to love across boundaries.

The marriage of true minds that does not admit impediments

The flipside of making one male character take on a female role is imagining both male characters as equals in love. Whether you love men or women, you know that being raised female is a handicap to feeling like an equal in love. (Maybe you personally were lucky, and had a fantastic feminist mom and dad, but I'm writing about the general case.) All around us in popular culture are messages that we are the object of affection, the one who has to attract and deserve love. What we want, our sexual and emotional desire, that's undervalued, unimportant. We are the ones love is done to, not the lovers, the active doers.

In real life, women love men and women love women and women make choices and decisions about who to love. But in our heads, we are constantly fighting for our right to choose and decide who to love, and how.

What a vacation from all of that when the partners are both men. Let them be shield partners, warriors, or cowboys. In slash we can make men into equals, or we can explore other inequalities than gender. Is one partner richer? Smarter? Older? It might not be reality that gay men have these equal relationships, but in our mirror of desire, we can make them equal.

(Since people are continuing to cite this meta, I want to also link you to The Genderswap Theory of Slash by [info]julad that has some nice language on the same theme--scroll down.)

Summing up—the word hegemonic does not appear in this meta (whoops!)

I know that there are some slash readers and writers who are not women. I am interested in what they like about slash. In this essay I was trying to address why so many women are interested in erotic stories about male/male relationships and sexual activity. I see several possible reasons that we find these stories erotic, find the relationships compelling, and want to explore them. I am available for your commenting pleasure.



Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

(Post a new comment)

(Deleted post)
Re: After reading this...
[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 12:51 pm UTC (link)
I find Slash interesting for all the reasons you mention and then some, but I also find them erotic. I'm not sure why, but I really don't care. I think if you analyze why something is erotic, some of that eroticism might be lost.

Ah, but clearly that isn't as much of a problem as you thought, is it? Because I was trying to analyze why slash is erotic, and youfound my language in doing so hot enough that you needed to fan your brow. I thought that counted as analysis though. We were thinking. At least a little!

Society values gayness or bisexuality even less than it does the free expression of female sexuality.

Yes, and I wanted to try to say something about why we put ourselves in those shoes. I think even when women who are quite privileged write about their sexuality, we feel ourselves in an unprivileged position. Perhaps that is the real appropriation here.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: After reading this... - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-30 07:08 pm UTC

[info]etrangere
2006-01-30 09:57 am UTC (link)
I really loved this essay and the one you made before. Very clear, well laid out and level-headed argumentations ^^

It's funny how many reasons there is for writing slash. I could recognize myself in some of those you listed, not in some others, and I can think of others you didn't mention.

Men's bodies are so vulnerable!

I like this point. I'd never had thought about this in quite this fashion before but it's very insightful. Men's sexuality appears to us as so easy, so accessible, and so overwhelming by compareason to women's. Sometimes it feels like slash is all about the vulnerability.

Are we objectifying men to the same extent that we are objectified in their porn about our bodies?
I don't think the question is whether we do it, but whether it's wrong to do so. In many way, similarly to the fantasy, I don't think it's dangerous as long as people don't think that the image equals the reality, as long as they don't treat people and not characters as objects as well.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 12:33 pm UTC (link)
I can think of others you didn't mention.

Lay them on me! Or if you decide to write your own essay about it, link it here.

In many way, similarly to the fantasy, I don't think it's dangerous as long as people don't think that the image equals the reality, as long as they don't treat people and not characters as objects as well.

Yes, that is the critical thing, do we know the difference between fantasy and reality.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Another possible reason for reading slash - [info]teeweedream, 2006-01-31 09:13 pm UTC

[info]miss_gb
2006-01-30 11:22 am UTC (link)
I really loved your essay. I don't really actively participate in fandom; just tend to lurk and enjoy the discussions and writing, but I think the whole dynamic is fascinating. Thanks for such interesting writing - hope you don't mind if I friend you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 12:31 pm UTC (link)
I am glad you enjoyed the essay.

I have an open friending policy and I haven't yet posted anything private to this journal, so go ahead. (I think people get intimidated by LJ's work "friend"-- it's just a subscription to read someone's content. If this were a blog and you were setting up an RSS feed, you wouldn't feel like you had to ask. )

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]cmar_wingnut
2006-01-30 01:08 pm UTC (link)
Wonderful essay. I used to think liking slash was all about the sex, just a quirk of human sexual nature making straight women like gay male sex just like straight men like lesbian sex. Now, I've seen for myself that there are a lot of lesbians who are into male/male slash, and even some straight men who like or at least will read it.

I think there's a lot to be said for the reason you mentioned of breaking boundaries, of the added intensity of a relationship that goes against taboos and faces serious challenges in the real world as well as the fictional. After all, a large part of fictional romance is in the challenges.

And your statements about slash celebrating the many attractions of the male body really struck me.

For myself personally - I'm not sure if this is any different from what you said, but I think a large part of it is that I like men. Minds, bodies, voices, personalities, whatever, I find male characters in general more interesting than female ones. (Not very liberated of me, I know.) I tend to identify with males, and since I can understand being sexually attracted to a male more easily than to a female, it comes rather naturally to me to write men falling in love with each other.

Which leads to another possibility - I've noticed with male characters I'm attracted to, I am not pleased when they are paired with a woman - simple, if irrational, jealousy - yet I enjoy seeing them paired up with another man, if the relationship makes sense to me. Maybe it's a way of seeing your favorite guy getting some without 'the other woman' in the picture? Just a thought...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 01:52 pm UTC (link)
Which leads to another possibility - I've noticed with male characters I'm attracted to, I am not pleased when they are paired with a woman - simple, if irrational, jealousy - yet I enjoy seeing them paired up with another man, if the relationship makes sense to me. Maybe it's a way of seeing your favorite guy getting some without 'the other woman' in the picture? Just a thought...

Maybe. I wonder if it isn't that you identify more with the male characters than the female ones? I think that's a function of how they're written, rather than our gender identification.

I know for me, I'd rather see Remus Lupin with Severus Snape than with Nymphadora Tonks, even though I like Tonks a lot. Inside, I'm ugly and angry like Snape. Or I feel that way, anyway.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]abby_normal
2006-01-30 01:19 pm UTC (link)
Hi. I followed a link from [info]sophinisba and found both of your essays to be both fascinating and dead-on in so many ways. Really quite impressive. Well thought-out, articulate and reasonable and jam-packed with analyses I hadn't really considered much before.

I moderate a LOTR newsletter community, [info]middleearthnews, and since both of these essays are pertinent to all of fandom (and not one in specific), I was hoping you would allow me to post links to them in our 'Discussions of Interest' section. I won't do so without permission, so if you would be kind enough to let me know, I would very much appreciate it.

Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 01:35 pm UTC (link)
I love it that you think I've been artculate and reasonable! That is definitely the persona after which I was striving. Sure, go ahead and link to the LOTR newsletter. I think I know LOTR well enough to respond to comments with LOTR examples. Very kind of you!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]essentialjoy
2006-01-30 02:04 pm UTC (link)
I had a very clear train of thought which led to my writing from the perspective of Bellatrix. She's a horrible character in canon but she's closest to my age and I feel more comfortable writing about her, as a woman, than I do writing about Hermione or Luna or whoever.

I'm friending you, too, if that is okay.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 02:11 pm UTC (link)
Oh great! In the last story I published, several commenters talked about how much they like Bellatrix! I made her super evil and they still said that. I bet you get a lot of readers.

Sure, friend me too!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]essentialjoy, 2006-02-01 10:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 02:56 pm UTC

[info]cruisedirector
2006-01-30 03:10 pm UTC (link)
You really must read Joanna Russ and Constance Penley on Kirk/Spock and the feminization of the male body via pon farr. *g* I buck in both your essay and theirs at the generalized "we" -- I think in commercial culture that men can feel as distanced from their desires and their own bodies as women, that there is not nearly as much of a male-female polarity as is being posited here and that the whole complicated nest of sexual orientation, gender performance, race (which gets erased entirely in ways that make me really uncomfortable), class, cultural background, etc. etc. etc.

I think you will really like Penley who is, in a sense, a great optimist about both pop culture in general and fandom in particular -- she sees it as a socially liberating force, whereas I see it increasingly as an evasion of actual engagement in the commercial world that spawned the source material and the political world that we're ostensibly resisting here. As entertainment, fandom is harmless enough, if you don't mind the flame wars and the trolling and the snark and the borderline personalities that seem perpetual, but as a form of serious social engagement, I don't find it particularly more impressive than reading a book or watching a movie by yourself down your basement and taking your own private notes on it.

For all my picking on the academic language and approach to mass culture crit, the academy does exert a broad sociopolitical influence -- it's why Jonathan Yardley has to keep protesting the more outrageous MLA conference paper titles, because increasingly the job of the academy is not to maintain Canon in the English Literature sense but to explode it. Maybe in the internet age, fandom will have a much broader effect than it did when it was small groups of loosely affiliated people mailing around paper zines, but other than validating one another's emotional and erotic needs here, I don't see much worth lauding on a social level and I see plenty that reminds me of middle school.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 05:31 pm UTC (link)
For some reason I don't understand, my reply to this comment did not come out in the right place--it came out as a reply to my post. I thought I had the hang of this LJ business, but I guess there was some glitch. It came out one position down from this.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 05:57 pm UTC

[info]thesnapelyone
2006-01-30 03:35 pm UTC (link)
*applauds* This is wonderful! Very articulate and concise. As I said with the last one, I agree completely, and what I love about these essays is that you've managed to give my vauge notions form and clarity. Have enjoyed these so much!

(Reply to this)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 03:46 pm UTC (link)
I buck in both your essay and theirs at the generalized "we" -- I think in commercial culture that men can feel as distanced from their desires and their own bodies as women, that there is not nearly as much of a male-female polarity as is being posited here and that the whole complicated nest of sexual orientation, gender performance, race (which gets erased entirely in ways that make me really uncomfortable), class, cultural background, etc. etc. etc.

Probably I should say "I" and "some of you", though I feel when I do that like I'm distancing myself from other women whom I see think things that are different from what I do. Hence my wimpy "some of us do this, and some do that" kind of construction. Further than that, into that complicated nest of overlapping identities--I'm a little scared that I'll really get things wrong. Well, I don't think I'm going to be writing much more of this stuff, anyway!

...she sees it as a socially liberating force, whereas I see it increasingly as an evasion of actual engagement in the commercial world that spawned the source material and the political world that we're ostensibly resisting here.

Oy. Oof. Well, okay. I mean, in the end, if I want to be political about sexuality, I know I have to organize against anti-gay marriage legislation, for example. Writing little slash stories doesn't hack it. I drew that conclusion a lot time ago, that if I want to do politics, it has to look like traditional politics and a bit less like sitting, depressed and inert, in my living room. I get regular email updates about welfare policy in my state, (another example) and I read them and just hold my head in my hands. Not very effective, is it?

If I want to be engaged in that commercial world, I have to start writing for publication and submitting my work. That is my eventual goal, actually. I hear your disillusionment here and I feel sad about it. If anyone should be writing original fiction and "engaging that commercial world", it's you. You have a lot of experience and you write--"like buttah." Everything smooth and perfect. That's what I thought when I first read your writing and that's what I still think. I would gladly pay to read your work.

It would be ironic if, after you persuaded me to come into fandom as a fan fiction writer, I persuaded you to leave and start writing original fiction.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cruisedirector
2006-01-30 06:19 pm UTC (link)
You shouldn't feel sad, it is nobody's fault but my own. *g* And you are very right about the community within fandom being supportive...writing for publication is a lonely business. If you are sitting depressed and inert in your living room, though, I don't think that fan fiction in the end is going to offer a way out of that...everyone hits a point, no matter how big a big name fan they ultimately become, where you realize you have to focus on other areas of your life to really feel that you are connected to the world and accomplishing things. I am just better at seeing it in other people than I am at doing it myself...

My experiences writing original fiction have been trying...I know I can sell hackish stuff that I don't really like, and I know I can't finish anything long and meaningful. *g* I am very flattered at your opinion of my writing but I don't think it's true when there is plot involved! And I think you should be writing original fiction...you practically are, though you are tying it to Rowling's characters. I am not sure why you are, quite frankly...I would rather see your take on that scenario completely outside any connection to HP. But then you're outside the fannish network, so I do understand...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 07:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alchemia, 2006-01-30 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elsie, 2006-01-31 11:58 pm UTC

[info]shirasade
2006-01-30 04:42 pm UTC (link)
I actually thought about my own erotic slash fantasies only today, and your essay managed to articulate many of the things that appeal to me so much better than I ever could!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 05:26 pm UTC (link)
But do write something. The point is to write.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]shinychimera
2006-01-30 05:50 pm UTC (link)
I have been thinking about this a bit lately, and was pretty sure someone might have articulated my thoughts already, but was too daunted to go searching through the slash-fic meta-literature. (I got here via [info]fanthropology.) You came pretty close here.

It's close to the idea of the "vulnerable penis", a different kind of not-quite penis envy, but not quite the same. Call it "orgasm envy".

I think that women are so varied, and the process of arousing even the same one consistently can be so complicated that it's not a simple thing to write a convincing love scene with a woman. Certainly there are authors who do it beautifully, but it's not easy to write such a scene that will carry every female reader along in erotic bliss.

Too many of us are sometimes frustrated with our own bodies, our hide-and-seek libido, the clitoris that wants a little, no a lot, no -- no pressure at all, dammit!, the occasional inability to reach climax, or the dissatisfaction after a lover reaches one. (And I'm not just talking about inept lovers -- the friends I can talk about this stuff with admit that we've encountered this sort of thing in pleasuring ourselves, too.)

That doesn't even go into the fact that what's unbearably sexy to one woman can be a complete turn-off to the next.

I think because the male arousal is (or can be idealized as) a straightforward and easy process (insertion, thrust, ejaculation, or point and shoot, in the end), it is easier for an author to write something that she and her readers find convincingly hot. It is easier, or more desireable, for us to believe that arousal can be that easy and that straightforward and that hugely satisfying. Of course some of the best writers give us slash that also incorporates more of our idealized 'feminine' lovemaking too -- they spend more time on foreplay, more appreciation of non-traditional erogenous zones, more emotional connection. Other great writers we like because they go the opposite direction, and give us hard sweaty urgent man-sex with no time for feminine softness. Both ways allow us to enjoy believable fantasies of simply satisfiable desire.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 05:59 pm UTC (link)
Exactly, exactly. Orgasm envy. That's it.

I've never had a problem with hide and seek libido or reaching orgasm (as I'm sure you wanted to know!). Also, I've known men who didn't achieve orgasm easily. Still, I find that "point and shoot" (ha!) representation so persuasive.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 07:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-30 07:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 07:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 07:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 07:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 08:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 08:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 08:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cruisedirector, 2006-01-30 08:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-30 08:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gwynfyd, 2006-01-30 07:38 pm UTC

[info]alixtii
2006-01-30 08:39 pm UTC (link)
Though we have at least the same if not a greater capacity than men for experiencing sexual pleasure, their genitals are socially constructed to go off at the slightest touch.

As radically post-structuralist as I can get sometimes, I still have difficulty seeing how this could be an effect of social construction.

You don't need specialized knowledge to work a penis.

That's not true, but if I'm correct in understanding you, it doesn't matter if it's true or not, right? As long as you believe it and incorporate it into the fantasy? Because in that case, continue on with my blessing.

Another obvious reason that women in fandom write slash is that we don't identify with the female characters.

As a het male, I identify much more strongly with female characters than males. So I think there's something more subtle than simple misogny/misandry going on here, although I don;t know what it is.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-30 08:56 pm UTC (link)
That's not true, but if I'm correct in understanding you, it doesn't matter if it's true or not, right? As long as you believe it and incorporate it into the fantasy? Because in that case, continue on with my blessing.

You are right, that is what I was saying. Of course one needs to know something to work a penis. What everyone knows about penises, whether it's accurate or not, is pretty different from what they know about women's genitals.

It's quite amazing to me that there are women who don't know where their clitorises are. That is just not something that happens to men, I think. It's not like the clit is so hard to find, it's pretty obvious. Someone has to make a decision to never name it or point it out, say when a toddler is making the transition from diapers to potty training. My son sure knows where his penis is, though.

However, I really think that sexual differences are more individual than what I'm putting out here.

Thank you for your blessing! hee.


As a het male, I identify much more strongly with female characters than males. So I think there's something more subtle than simple misogny/misandry going on here, although I don;t know what it is.


Huh! That is very interesting! I would like to know more about that! Is that usual? If so, why aren't more books directed at male audiences written with female protagonists? Or is it just you?

Is that true for you in HP fandom, or LOTR, or what? Jane Austen? Really interesting! Thanks for commenting, I hope you will elaborate!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]elsie, 2006-01-31 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]alixtii, 2006-01-31 11:59 pm UTC

[info]amihan_811
2006-01-30 08:51 pm UTC (link)
What a vacation from all of that when the partners are both men. Let them be shield partners, warriors, or cowboys. In slash we can make men into equals, or we can explore other inequalities than gender. Is one partner richer? Smarter? Older? It might not be reality that gay men have these equal relationships, but in our mirror of desire, we can make them equal.

This is what appeals to me about slash, the idea that all the aspects of a relationship can be explored outside of gendered expectations and roles. Just sounds liberating to read about hot male bodies getting it on without having to deal with this cumbersome reality.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

here via fanthropology
[info]eveningblue
2006-01-30 10:58 pm UTC (link)
Me too.

I really enjoyed your essay. What I was going to say has pretty much already been said, but I was particularly struck by this:

Again, the sexist occlusion of obvious information about how women's bodies work has made that...not really a problem for us. We have to try to have orgasms, not to hold back from coming.

Something I really really enjoy about writing/reading slash is how EASY it is for men to get aroused, come, etc. Although this may not be exactly true in real life, it's certainly more true for men than for women. Reading het porn/fanfiction, I am immediately thrown out of the story if the woman comes easily and quickly. Same with sex scenes in movies. Women are regularly climaxing in under five minutes! Impossible!

Even more importantly, in slash, both men are equal in this way. One partner is not holding back while the other one is trying to come. It's just a totally different dynamic.

I also agree with what you wrote about identifying with male characters in tv/books/movies. I mused about this here. Basically, I see slash potential in a show whenever the female lead is not an equal to the male lead. When the woman is an equal, I feel no need to slash (I realize this is my own personal thing and not necessarily true for everyone who likes slash).

Anyway, very interesting and thought-provoking post.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: here via fanthropology - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-31 12:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]celandineb, 2006-01-31 05:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-31 07:14 am UTC

[info]innerslytherin
2006-01-31 02:19 am UTC (link)
I have nothing intelligent to contribute in my comments, but I wanted to say that I read, appreciated, and agreed. As a woman approaching thirty, happily single, attracted to men physically, I enjoy slash. In fact, I prefer slash to het, though I'm not anti-het, and I enjoy genfics, too.

Anyway. Just here to applaud. ^_^

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-31 02:35 am UTC (link)
Thanks! That's very nice of you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]delicatetruth
2006-01-31 02:45 am UTC (link)
I'm sitting here supposedly working on math, so I don't have anything too eloquent to say. However, I agree so much with what you said and how you said it. It really puts into perspective why so many slash appeals to so many woman- regardless of sexual preferance in RL.

Very well put.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-31 07:10 am UTC (link)
Thanks for coming to read.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]maelwaedd
2006-01-31 03:04 am UTC (link)
I don't really have an intelligent comment to add, but I love the equality concept. I'm in a het relationship (that I hope will be long term), and while I hadn't thought of it this way before, the gender equality of slash is possibly a great part of what draws me to slash. In my relationship, I'm the mother, ten years younger, and because of the age gap I have less industry experience, hence I earn less. The age difference and the financial differences are tackled quite often in fanfic, or at least in the fics that I tend to read, so while I hadn't thought of that before it's lovely to have read your essay. Enlightning, even. :) Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-31 07:12 am UTC (link)
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]nefyr
2006-01-31 05:52 am UTC (link)
I know that there are some slash readers and writers who are not women. I am interested in what they like about slash.

As a gay male, I'll be your "guinea pig". xD

Where to start? I guess why I prefer slash to porn? Slash seems to have meaning. Porn is just sort of...random. It's two people...having sex. That's all you know. Slash is two characters having sex.

So now we're getting somewhere interesting. For the sake of not rambling, characterization = sense of reality = personal connection = happy reader.

For me, it's all about the characters. In that supposedly run-of-the-mill PWP, wa major factor in me bookmarking it is if it was in character. I think the importance of character is evident in the silent disapproval of OOCness that's meant to be serious.

Oh, if you have any questions, I'm willing, so ask away. ^^

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]nefyr
2006-01-31 05:54 am UTC (link)
Just as a clarification, I'm drawing the sex parallel because the huge majority of what I read is NC-17.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-31 07:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nefyr, 2006-01-31 11:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-31 11:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nefyr, 2006-01-31 11:15 pm UTC

[info]nellie_darlin
2006-01-31 11:25 am UTC (link)
Again, fascinating. You've really caught something here.

One thing I was thinking about is what you say about us liking men's bodies. It's interesting when you read a fic to see what features authors choose to focus on: for example, for me it's mouths. Mouths are obviously sexualised, but they are not directly sexual. Do you think that's a girl thing? Or is it a me-thing? As far as I can tell, cocks actually get relatively little attention, beyond the "he was hard". You don't get the loving, detailed descriptions that might be put into a description of Remus's mouth, or Sirius's grin, or Harry's eyes. Not that this necessarily means anything, it's just an observation I'm throwing out.

And it's odd, because whenever there's meta about slash, there's always the suggestion that women like slash because it's slash. Whereas although there's something undeniably hot about two boys kissing, it's not enough. I slash Remus and Sirius because I think they have a fascinating interraction and they click as a couple. They just happen to be boys, you know? And I've gone off Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione in fanfic not because they're het ships, but simply because I feel they lack scope. Maybe in a different fandom I'd enjoy principally het ships, or a femmeslash ship - it simply happens that the character interraction that interests me is between two men. (Again, this is just an observation, I don't know what it adds to the discussion!)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-31 11:56 am UTC (link)
I am never sure which things are "girl things" and which things are individual writers' quirks. It does seem to me that mainstream porn puts a lot more energy into penis and breast descriptions than is strictly realistic. Some slash writers describe penises, too. I do see a lot of attention to hands, which I love, and smell.

Now about the fascinating interactions: I think once we open up the field to match anyone with anyone, we start to match up the characters we like the best. Rowling does not see Remus or Sirius as gay, so she didn't think about their possible interactions as a couple. I guess when you say that H/G or R/H lack scope, you mean scope for speculation. Rowling has done all that characterization for us. Remus and Sirius both have a lot of missing bits.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]woman_ironing
2006-01-31 02:37 pm UTC (link)
Another stimulating post. Watch out though, one more and you'll have built up a hegemony!

I don't write slash but I read it, and I think that for me it's probably the distance that a slash pairing provides and the equality that seems possible between the characters that pulls me in. Actually I only read Harry/Draco; I like H/D because they are opposites and equals, and I think I prefer the love and the UST to the actual sex. That's because the sex is pretty much the same in every fic. ( Er...mind you, so is the love and the UST.) The sex can be so repetitive from fic to fic it's almost like a mantra! I guess I want Harry and Draco to have sex because it represents the complete relationship. It's hot too, of course, and sometimes it can be more, a wonderful sort of worship. Sex in slash generally has a reassuring simplicity: they're both blokes and so want the same thing and so it's easy, direct, no misunderstandings, orgasm guaranteed, and repeated! It is the H/D that gets me, though, more than the slash or the sex. Other pairings? No, not that interested, and, doh, get a life, do something! (the ironing, usually) and anyway it'd be unfaithful to my boys.

I can see Harry and Draco going on to have relationships with women - I want them to because why not? and I want them to have children, and mpreg is just so not on, and so soap opera, and so undermining of the whole slash thing. Reading the slash and the sex has quite unexpectedly sparked a transformation - a stepping up, really - in my attitude towards relationships and sexuality. (I obviously take things too seriously.) For this reason, as well as because it is wrong, I abhor the misogyny that is sometimes evident or implicit in slash and it dismays me that women can write it. Not every bloke must be gay, and more importantly being attracted to men does not mean that the character should find women's bodies obscene and repulsive. (Unless it's pertinent to the plot, of course, but typically it's just a throwaway line - and should bloody well have been thrown away.) I wonder how much longer I'll stay in slashy fandom, though. Probably until the Draco Trilogy finally ends.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-31 06:26 pm UTC (link)
Another stimulating post. Watch out though, one more and you'll have built up a hegemony!

*snort* You are so cute.

Sex in slash generally has a reassuring simplicity: they're both blokes and so want the same thing and so it's easy, direct, no misunderstandings, orgasm guaranteed, and repeated!

Gertrude Stein once called murder mysteries "soothing." I think in this respect, slash can be soothing.

Reading the slash and the sex has quite unexpectedly sparked a transformation - a stepping up, really - in my attitude towards relationships and sexuality.

I've heard that from more than one person.

I abhor the misogyny that is sometimes evident or implicit in slash .... more importantly being attracted to men does not mean that the character should find women's bodies obscene and repulsive.

Oh totally. You would think they had never read any writing by gay men, or spoken to any gay men. It's a very odd view of sexual preference.

I can see Harry and Draco going on to have relationships with women - I want them to because why not? and I want them to have children,

I don't get this. Yeah, I'm no fan of mpreg, either, but where I live, gay men and lesbians can adopt. I also don't understand the whole "he's not really gay, he just loves Love Object X, and once that's over, straightsville." I mean, sexuality is fluid and everyone has lots of potential true loves and all, but I don't see why harry and/or Draco have to fall in love with women to make families.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]woman_ironing, 2006-01-31 10:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-31 11:05 pm UTC

[info]tigertrapped
2006-01-31 05:25 pm UTC (link)
Here via [info]metafandom to say - unequivocally, that was the best, most comprehensive, intelligent and least patronising piece of meta I've ever read on this subject. And I've been reading A LOT of meta on this subject. Congratulations, and thanks.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-31 06:27 pm UTC (link)
Wow, that is a great thing to say! Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Toddling over again.
[info]modillian
2006-01-31 07:06 pm UTC (link)
the word hegemonic does not appear in this meta
Aw, but I like it! It feels appropriate for these discussions (after I looked up the definition again.)

I haven't seen it phrased quite as intellectual penetration before, but that just brings a whole new side of slash for me to mull over. *chews on meta* I like how people keep parsing slash on different points of discussion. And everyone brings something new. My interest is piqued!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Toddling over again.
[info]schemingreader
2006-01-31 07:19 pm UTC (link)
By "intellectual penetration" I meant a bit of word play, since sometimes that phrase is used to mean intelligence.

I took a lot of flack from one of my favorite fandom friends for using literary critical language in my other essay. I think the phrase "hegemonic discourse" is kind of funny, isn't it? It's such elevated diction.

Well, I'm delighted that you enjoyed my essays, and I hope you will come around and read my stories. I try to use slightly less silly language in them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Toddling over again. - [info]modillian, 2006-01-31 09:22 pm UTC
Re: Toddling over again. - [info]schemingreader, 2006-01-31 09:29 pm UTC

[info]elsie
2006-01-31 11:38 pm UTC (link)
(I might be repeating some things others have said, but my time to peruse comments is limited, so.)

As I see it, my reasons for liking slash are pretty simple and easy to understand. 1) As you said, men's bodies are so sexy. I like to think about them, and more manflesh is mo' better.

2) I am a bisexual woman. I have been in relationships sexually and emotionally with both genders, and while I might lean in one direction at any given time, in the long run I don't prefer one gender over the other. I've only ever been in love/in a long-term relationship once, and it was with a woman. It goes without saying that GLBT issues are supremely important to me. I know what it is to be part of this minority and the unique issues and experiences that non-heterosexual people go through. To get right to the point, I find homosexual relationships (between two men or between two women) much more interesting on a psychological/emotional level. I definitely don't think that these relationships are superior to or are always more difficult and complex than straight relationships, but they involve certain issues that heterosexual couples won't experience and can never really understand. It fascinates me, and it appeals to my desire to see psychological issues that concern me reflected in what I read.

[Bear in mind that being bisexual doesn't make me more psychologically similar to gay people than to straight people. Neither group understands being attracted to both genders; they are actually much more similar to each other than to people like me. My relating to gay couples has more to do with how straight society treats non-heterosexual people of all persuasions.]

In fact, I know a few straight women who don't find gay sex particularly arousing, but like slash fiction because they too find it more interesting on a non-sexual level.

What gets me the most is that society doesn't question men's enjoyment of girl-on-girl action, but we women have to justify finding slash to be sexy.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-01-31 11:45 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for this thoughtful response! I also identify as bi, and I wonder how it affects my writing (and even reading) about sex.)

My relating to gay couples has more to do with how straight society treats non-heterosexual people of all persuasions. In fact, I know a few straight women who don't find gay sex particularly arousing, but like slash fiction because they too find it more interesting on a non-sexual level.

does it then annoy those folks all to hellangone when people don't get gay life right?

What gets me the most is that society doesn't question men's enjoyment of girl-on-girl action, but we women have to justify finding slash to be sexy

Oh, for me it was much more about justifying objectifying someone else. I'm getting off on someone else's sexual practices, that makes me feel a bit guilty. Though as I've written above, I'm coming to a new understanding of the psychological meaning of getting turned on. I think it might help people more than it harms them. I waver, vacillate and worry about it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]elsie, 2006-02-01 12:40 am UTC

[info]somewhatdeluded
2006-02-01 01:10 am UTC (link)
Great essay - probably the best I've ever read on this much-discussed topic.

The only thing that I would add - and it sort of goes along with your point about equality - is that I think for a lot of heterosexual, female slash writers, there's an intense desire for a happy ending that can't be fulfilled when the characters are a man and a woman. A marriage, or a marriage and a baby, has such intense associations with an unequal power dynamic when the partners are male and female - "man and wife" - that it becomes very, very difficult, personally difficult, for a lot of women, young women in particular, to express what they see as the happy ending for a heterosexual couple, when the homosexual couple might be, for them, much more straightforward.

I know an awful lot of girls my age - I'm twenty-three - who list marriage and babies as squicks for fanfic. Most of them haven't ruled out either marriage or babies as an option for themselves. But they do have a lot of anxiety related to both subjects, because they're acutely aware of the distance between the altar and happiness. I wouldn't quite say it's a squick for me, but the happiness of a gay couple making a life together in a fic usually does feel more believabel than that of a straight couple in an identical situation.

I wonder how much that would change were we to legalize gay marriage, and, in thirty years or so, start seeing the disillusioned daughters of the first great wave of gay divorce turn their keyboards in to fic a new generation of fandom...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]somewhatdeluded
2006-02-01 01:10 am UTC (link)
And God, apparently I left my ability to spell and write in complete sentences at work. *facepalm*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]truwest, 2006-02-01 02:46 am UTC
Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]nell65, 2006-02-01 04:39 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]schemingreader, 2006-02-01 05:02 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]nell65, 2006-02-01 05:33 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]schemingreader, 2006-02-01 05:49 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]nzraya, 2006-02-03 03:21 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]schemingreader, 2006-02-03 03:34 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]nzraya, 2006-02-03 04:11 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]truwest, 2006-02-03 05:01 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - (Anonymous), 2006-02-03 07:39 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]schemingreader, 2006-02-03 07:57 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]nell65, 2006-02-03 09:11 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]schemingreader, 2006-02-03 09:18 pm UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]truwest, 2006-02-04 12:52 am UTC
Re: Dropping by from metafandom - - [info]nell65, 2006-02-03 07:40 pm UTC

[info]dora_the_nymph
2006-02-01 08:32 pm UTC (link)
This is a very interesting, well thought essay. I agree with you generally - especially on the point of the vulnerability of men to desire and arousal, I'm sure that one of the things I like most about slash, because I could believe that the men are reacting like that, whereas het I can more often doubt.

I think a lot of women like to be able to escape from their societal sexual role and they use slash to do this and get into a relationship that is not one they could ever be a part of and 'try it out' in the fiction.

Thank you for making me think :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-02-01 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for coming to read, and commenting!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]truwest
2006-02-03 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Back again to respond to a comment -- and with a thought that's been alluded to elsewhere in the discussions, but I'll just put it here on the root thread:

There have been some recent books by experts on "western marriage" (I'm too lazy to look up the specifics right now) about how this whole recent wave of gay relationships and gay marriage is in fact a logical outcome of the trends in marriage over the last few hundred years.

Awhile back, we in the Western world decided that marriage was inherently *not* about children, or families, or society's requirements. Marriage should ultimately be about two individuals and their relationship -- two soulmates finding each other,etc. That magic element was what made it a "real" marriage. The tragedy was when the rest of society reacted negatively to the soulmates: Romeo and Juliet, etc.

Well: making marriage as a thing between two individuals, period, and the rest of society has no moral claims on the two people (that they must make babies, get their parents' or priest's permission etc) - then that opens the door for ANY two people to discover their attraction and want to get married.

Back in the late 1700s-1800s, marriage across class lines was the big thing -- ie, Jane Austen's books etc. We got past that; it's rare today for anyone to say that "it's wrong" to marry someone of a different class.

In 20th century America, it was interracial marriages. While those are still less accepted by some people, the public PC opinion is to say that those marriages are OK.

Nowdays, older people (past childbearing age) are getting (re)married. In the olden days, that wasn't quite respectable. Widows might marry to get more children, but generally older widows (and to some extent widowers) were supposed to stay single and celibate. No longer -- older people can and do marry late in life -- because marriage isn't just about kids and property inheritance anymore.

Now we're seeing gay relationships and gay marriages. It's just an extension of the same thing -- two people and the relationship between the two of them -- societal restrictions be damned.

I think of slash as arising in this historical context -- and slash providing (as many people have said already) a great way to examine a couples relationship free from all the gender-related baggage.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]schemingreader
2006-02-03 05:39 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I absolutely agree with this--I think it was one of my comments that had a less fleshed-out version of this idea, that gay marriage is the next logical step in the redefinition of marriage.

I've actually been writing a fan fic novel (or at least a long story, I'm still in the middle!) that features gay characters in a 19th c. social context in which arranged marriage is the norm. I've been thinking a lot about what it means to get married when the meaning of marriage is contested, as it is now, and as it was in at the turn of the 20th century.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…