an absolute word tart! ([info]schemingreader) wrote,
@ 2009-01-07 23:32:00
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Entry tags:birthdays, meta

Birthday Meta for [info]regan_v: "It's for Your Own Good, Severus"
I like to write meta for [info]regan_v's birthday, though because of my other committments this one is coming quite late! This year I want explore some themes that I've seen in fandom, a certain dynamic that I've observed in Snape slash and in my own reading of it. It's an extension of the meaning of dubious consent.


"It's for Your Own Good, Severus"




Why do we like to read fan fiction stories about Severus Snape in sexual or other pleasurable situations which involve dubious consent?

By dubious consent, I mean situations in which characters are forced to have sex (or as you'll see, do something like that) but not, as the reader knows, entirely against their will. Dubious consent also includes scenes in which the character would have consented if they had been free to do so, but because they couldn't truly consent--were underage, under the influence of drugs and alcohol, or had a teacher-student or other coersive relationship--it's dub con.

Dubious consent is a literary phenomenon. It cannot exist in real life because it depends on dramatic irony for its being. In real life, dubious consent is non-consent, is rape. For dub con to work in a story, the reader has to know more than the characters do about what motivates them and what they really want and enjoy. Dubious consent is a dangerous motif in literature, because it can look like a justification for real-life coercion, sexual or otherwise.

Since I've been reading and writing erotic fan fiction, I've come to understand that dubious consent stories can have positive psychological function for the people who are writing and reading them. Looking at why people enjoy stories in which Snape is coerced into experiencing pleasure, or consents without his full faculties, I can see how this works for me as a reader, and perhaps for others as well.

For example, I recced a story in which McGonagall makes Snape eat ice cream. There is nothing sexual about this dub con, but it's not clear that Snape wants to eat ice cream. One of my flisters was squicked by the story, for a few reasons--one is, she doesn't like ice cream and people give her a hard time about it.

I know [info]regan_v has the same feeling I do about Lovesong of Bastard and Idiot because it was her review that got me to read it in the first place. A classic case of dubious consent--Snape is forced by withdrawal from a potion he's been taking into sexual life again, violently and rapidly. There's a frisson of humiliation, which Snape needs like a hole in the head after all the horrible stuff he's been through in canon, but apparently fans need to see him cope with humiliation again and again. Perhaps it's the grace with which he does it, or the fact that he usually emerges stronger and wiser for it.

I have a tag on my LiveJournal for stories in which I've written Snape drunk or high. I love to do that to him--to force him to stop controlling himself and generally, to have sex with someone he might not approach when sober. This is pretty much the opposite of what I think people should do in real life. I do not believe that people should attempt to make informed consent to sex when drunk or high. Not only that--I don't really use alcohol or other drugs very much. (No judgment on people who do--it just fell out that way because of who my friends are and what my life experience has been.) But I love to see Snape lose inhibitions, to see him have to tell the truth about his feelings, so I write him drunk and high on alcohol, drugs and potions, even though that creates situations of dubious consent.

Why? Why do we insist on subjecting Snape to coercion and humiliation? What's so exciting about dubious consent stories, stories in which someone is made to feel pleasure--and why do we want that person to be Snape?

To some extent, because Snape in canon is an authority figure whose entire social presence is a buzz kill. Though I'm no adolescent rebel--the truth is, probably even in adolescence I would have enjoyed Snape as a teacher, provided he didn't dislike me on sight for no reason--I can get into Harry's mindset. It would be so much more fun if instead of periodically losing his cool and foaming at the mouth at Harry because of stuff Harry can't control, he would lose control because of pleasure. This is one of the root appeals of Snarry as a pairing. It's not just that Snape loves Harry after all, doesn't hate him--we all get why that is a major pleasure for the reader, since we all had adults in our childhoods who just disliked us for no reason, were abusive, etc. No, that's not all--Harry makes Snape lose control from pleasure and desire. The guy finally has fun.

And there's the other piece, which is the extent to which Snape-fen identify with Snape. Yes, most of the fen are female and he's male, I suppose. But he's also got a sad childhood, a sarcastic tongue, and not one but two creepy bossses--many of us have experienced some variation on that, even if the sarcasm stays firmly in our heads. So sometimes we identify with Snape, and when we do, seeing him give up his control and experience pleasure is deeply gratifying. If only we could temporarily give up control--but that would be irresponsible, and we wouldn't identify with Snape if we weren't actually quite responsible. Snapely dubious consent stories allow the readers to project themselves into Snape's overly controlled life and then feel what it would be like to break that control.

I think this can be beneficial if we are aware of what we are doing and which buttons we are pushing--but that's how I feel about most erotica. What can we know about ourselves from what gives us pleasure, and how can we use that information to be better human beings? I'm always curious to learn.



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[info]tripperfunster
2009-01-08 06:42 am UTC (link)
Dub-con (along with h/c) are my absolute STAPLES in fanfic (and art). And not surprisingly, h/c brings many things that you talk about in your meta. Mostly loss of control, giving yourself over to someone else (without your clear consent) and it can also be somewhat humiliating.

I've often wondered about my love for dub-con. Obviously, it's not something that I crave for myself (been there, got the T-shirt, thanks) and I honestly don't think that fanfic helps me to 'work through' any issues with that.

I've heard (and don't really agree) that rape-fic/fantasies are feelings of being 'undeserving' of pleasure, so that taking away the victim's control, and letting them experience said pleasure, is our mind's way of circumventing that feeling.

I don't think *I* am undeserving of pleasure, and I certainly have a healthy and satisfying sex life with the man I love, but WHOOT! A good dub-con story can push my buttons like nothing else.

One thing you didn't really touch on here, is Snape as the aggressor in dub-con. Some of the very first Snarry I ever read, were detention fic, and rawr! I doubt i'll ever tire of a well written detention fic.

I'm not sure how coherent this comment is, I fail at meta, but thanks for making this post.

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[info]schemingreader
2009-01-08 11:06 am UTC (link)
I don't know if we are all working out our issues in this very obvious, mechanical "oh, now that I've read this story I feel better about myself" sort of way. I do think that knowing "I don't want to be coerced myself, but it's so much fun to think about this character giving up control" is working through something. Maybe like when kids want to read scary stories?

I guess even though I love stories in which characters think about difficult thing X, have an orgasm about it and are magically cured, I don't think our psyches work that way. But we are doing something with our busy brains and dub con, and I'm pretty sure it's not wearing a groove in that makes us think it's OK IRL.

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[info]lookfar
2009-01-08 03:15 pm UTC (link)
Could you enlarge on that last sentence? I don't understand it and I want you to say more.

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[info]schemingreader
2009-01-08 03:21 pm UTC (link)
I don't think that reading dubious consent stories, or even rapefics, necessarily desensitizes the reader to real-life rape. If it does, then it really is a guilty pleasure and one we should give up. Somehow I see a lot of people who are very well able to understand sexual ethics and consent who enjoy this stuff anyway.

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[info]fanficforensics
2009-01-11 11:20 am UTC (link)
Agreed. I actually spent quite a while feeling queasy about liking non-con in fic. But then when the concept popped up in a live roleplay session I was participating in, I felt very uncomfortable and did everything I could to avoid having my player character subjected to non-con. That's when I realized I was still drawing a healthy boundary between that kink in fic and real-life sexual violence. The roleplay session was a tad too close to reality for me to find it kinky in any way (even though it was just people sitting on sofas and talking about what was happening to their characters).

Not too sure how I could explain this to others, though. I've been wanting to talk to the storyteller about cutting down on the torture porn, but he and the other players know I like to read that stuff in fic, and I'm not even sure myself exactly why non-con feels kinky in fic and scary in roleplay. Too personal? I don't know.

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[info]lookfar
2009-01-08 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Omg, you are so *smart* It's a pleasure to see the wheels go 'round, and not one of dubious consent. I've never thought of dub-con as regards things like ice cream, magazines and sheets of Egyptian cotton. I agree with you totally about vicarious guilt-free pleasures; if skinny old Snape is being forced to eat ice cream, can we at least watch? This is that same old saw about rape fantasies, right? It's a fantasy about being relieved of control and guilt, not of violence (violent ice cream eating!).

I had a brief liaison once with a man who would not do anything for himself; he wouldn't bother to heat his food, or use real shampoo on his hair, or make his bed properly. He had been terribly under-nurtured as a child and couldn't stand to make himself aware of how much he wanted. But he would come to my house and eat a whole package of Pepperidge Farm cookies and it gave me huge pleasure to watch him.

I think the repressed, exacting, brilliant Snape is more fanon than canon. Where in the books do we see him in a state of self-denial? He's more of a self-pitying rageaholic. Yes, he's a spy, but you don't really know what he's like in private. And those buttons everyone loves to analyze? Warner Bros put them there. But we like him to be that way (repressed, self-denying, pessimistic) because...because...we can make him eat ice cream!

One further thought: another type of dub-con is when someone is so desperate (for relief, comfort, etc) that he will override his own resistance. This is the Priapus-Curse kind of fic; Snape is in such terrible pain from said curse or some Cruciatus event or even poverty or loneliness that he accepts what another character wants to give him. There's a vicarious pleasure for the reader in experiencing vulnerability at a remove. None of us want to feel desperate, yet we suspect that we may sometimes be desperate and vulnerable. So, let Snape feel it and let someone else come along and fill him up.

I wish we could be having this convo in person! Maybe we can meet up somewhere in 09.

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[info]schemingreader
2009-01-08 03:22 pm UTC (link)

I had a brief liaison once with a man who would not do anything for himself; he wouldn't bother to heat his food, or use real shampoo on his hair, or make his bed properly. He had been terribly under-nurtured as a child and couldn't stand to make himself aware of how much he wanted. But he would come to my house and eat a whole package of Pepperidge Farm cookies and it gave me huge pleasure to watch him.


Oh wow, I can only imagine! It would be difficult to stay with someone like that in the long term, but so satisfying in the short term to have sexual relations with them, cook them dinner, give them a soft sweater...

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[info]lookfar
2009-01-08 05:34 pm UTC (link)
He was incredibly smart, articulate and witty, but I had already been to grad school and I knew what the wreckage behind him meant. He'd left a string of women behind him and I wasn't so dim as to think that I would be the Special Angel who could heal his wounds when no one else could. They all felt the same way I did, no doubt, dying to give him sex and sweaters, and he was quite vicious when he spoke of some of them.

Sure enough, I wrote him a letter years later when his friend died, and the letter he wrote me back was horrible, mean and contemptuous and demeaning.

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[info]schemingreader
2009-01-08 05:56 pm UTC (link)
You dated Snape!

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[info]lookfar
2009-01-08 06:56 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm...Snapelike. He wasn't really harsh and critical all the time, in Snapely fashion. I only saw glimpses, when he talked about his past. He was actually rather endearing and wanted to be liked, but I figured out that if you disappointed him, you were demonized forever. He was from a very wealthy family who had drunk up all the money and he lived all alone in a small house in Scotland when he wasn't where I met him.

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[info]bk7brokemybrain
2009-01-08 06:19 pm UTC (link)
"And those buttons everyone loves to analyze? Warner Bros put them there."

Some people who have read the books (not those sad folks who only watch the movies, lol) choose to forget that in JK's world, everyone wears robes, men,women and students alike. Frequently without undergarments, gray underpants notwithstanding. Gotta have that healthy breeze 'round your privates. In any case, I thought Jany Temime's costume for Snape was brilliant. she told such a story with his buttoned-down presentation. In the books, Snape's sleeves were loose, he easily slid up his sleeve to show his Mark to Fudge, but the movie version features whimsical Victorian/Edwardian versions of Muggle wear, and she designed so much character into every costume. Really amazing. Snape was a favorite character of mine before the movies, but after I got the visuals, even though they didn't quite match the books, that world came alive and that version of Snape was burned into my brain. The way Alan Rickman plays him as a very insecure person who carefully lashes out where he can, is much different than the book, but when the two are blended - wow.
I choose to think that he limits himself in his joys and vices, he may not be depressed but is certainly anhedonic, so when I read about him being coerced or allowing himself to accept pleasure it hits all kinds of buttons. And not just the ones on his chest.

BTW, Yukipon's art depicting Snape's clothing, especially his cuffs, has set off a whole new kink for me. Yum.

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[info]schemingreader
2009-01-08 06:24 pm UTC (link)
When I first saw the films, the only thing I liked was Rickman's portrayal of Snape. Yes, he was too old and had too much self-control for my vision of Snape--but I liked the way he underplayed a character that JKR had written over-the-top. That first scene, the one in which he's so mean and venomous toward Harry, became more nuanced and interesting with Rickman's characterization.

He adds a lot, but I like what you say here about what the costumer added! That's quite insightful.

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[info]bk7brokemybrain
2009-01-08 08:13 pm UTC (link)
The HP movies really opened my eyes to the importance of the visual texture onscreen when telling a story. Every single aspect of those films (especially after Chris Columbus) was so well done, of the utmost quality, that the actors hardly have to speak a word. The music, the costumes, every prop, every wall and step, the makeup, the screenplay, on and on. Seriously, how much screen time to these fabulous actors get to establish their role? Very little. Their clothes speak volumes for them. Rickman has such a great presence that I almost prefer the bits where he is silent - roving around in the study hall in Goblet of Fire comes to mind. Even the slips of paper that come out of the Goblet are individual and add to the character of the participants. The Beauxbaton paper was folded like a fan or paper umbrella, so delicate. Harry's, naturally, looked like a crumpled up bit of composition paper that he had written on with crayon, lol. I am amazed that it was someone's job to make those scraps into tiny characters.
If you haven't seen it, here's a link to a little documentary called Harry Potter: Costume Drama, and tells us how the very cloth for the costumes was hand painted, aged, damaged if necessary, and how they clothed 300 students. It boggles the mind and makes me want to reach simultaneously for a Ritalin and a Klonopin when I think of all the follow-through it requires to keep all that straight. Yikes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bRk70Y04I4
Gary Oldman is good in it, and I think Jason Isaacs is in it too. All I remember is thinking that JI in form-fitting leather is his wet-dream, lol. Enjoy!

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[info]schemingreader
2009-01-08 08:24 pm UTC (link)
Gary Oldman was so good in the last movie that it made me want to watch his earlier work. One night I watched all of Prick Up Your Ears in 10 minute segments. Jason Isaacs, on the other hand, I learned to love through fandom, because people posted his interviews with the press. He is just adorable.

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[info]bk7brokemybrain
2009-01-08 09:07 pm UTC (link)
Gary Oldman made Sirius Black into a much better man than he had a right to be. I still dislike the canon Sirius, he was always a bully and very self-centered. Oldman gave him a heart. *loves*
LOL @ the ten minute segments. That's how I watched all of "Queer as Folk". Lord help me, lol.
And JI is too much. I love watching him just as much as AR.

Any GO movies in particular I should see? I've hardly seen him in anything besides "Dracula".

I need to see more David Thewlis flicks, too. "Naked" was amazing and disturbing. I know he and JI were in Divorcing Jack (?), but its not available readily.

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[info]lookfar
2009-01-08 06:50 pm UTC (link)
Oh yes, I love the buttons, too, and the whole Victorian feel of the movies. We started reading the books at the very beginning, though, so I always felt that the "real" Potterverse had robes and no jeans or cuffs.

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Part I, since of course this was thought-provoking
[info]regan_v
2009-01-08 03:58 pm UTC (link)
Wow! Birthday meta for meeeeeee! Thank you so much, dear.

And meta that really makes me think, too. Indeed, meta that makes me feel that I'm not actually so sure what I think, which is one of the very best flavors. And the choice of topic is fascinating to me (which won't surprise you, I think).

Dubious consent is a literary phenomenon. It cannot exist in real life because it depends on dramatic irony for its being.

Hmmm. You know, I'm not sure if I agree with you about that, although maybe I'll decide that I do, if we kick it around. I'm pretty sure that I don't completely follow what you're saying there; it seems like there's a really intelligent and complicated argument packed into that second sentence, and I'm probably not getting everything that it implies.

There is a sort of dubcon that can't exist in RL, and that does depend on the reader knowing more than the characters do. That would be the sort of story where Harry never really did admit to himself that he wanted Snape, but it's clear to the reader, and then Harry's put in a situation where he has little choice. The reader has a sort of eagle's eye POV in such stories, and that mutes any feeling of coercion.

But there are a lot of flavors of dubcon, really.

In real life, dubious consent is non-consent, is rape

Ah. See here's where I'm not sure I agree with you. I do agree that dubious consent is non-consent (and thus is rape) when one party is a pupil (or otherwise under the power of the other party), or is under the influence, etc. In such cases, you're correct that true consent is not given and so it's non-consent.

But it's not always that black and white. I do believe that there is a huge grey zone of sex (where both parties are adults and both are sober, etc.) that is partly-coerced or slightly coerced, or somewhat coerced, but that would not (in my mind) qualify as rape. Which is not to say that all such sex is not reprehensible, since coercion and sex shouldn't be combined at all. But it is dubcon, from my POV.

The story you mention, Love Song of Bastard and Idiot would fall into that gray zone, for me. There's nothing here that depends on dramatic irony or a special POV or information that only the reader has, that softens the moral edges. Harry's been lusting after Snape, but both he and Snape know this (since Harry blurts it out right away). And Harry does give Snape free choice, although Snape is in the grip of this withdrawal; he's not coercing Snape, although the situation that Snape's in does influence his choices strongly. But he continues to sleep with Harry even as the potion's influence wanes, too. Anyway, it's dubcon for me because it falls into that gray zone, and there's nothing here that is purely a literary phenomenon (apart from the magic and AU-ness of the wizarding world, I mean).

The things you pinpoint about why the reader might enjoy Snape dubcon are interesting. I think that you want to see people happy (this is so, so core to your personality, and it's one of the things I cherish in you) and so for you, it's about seeing how "Harry makes Snape lose control from pleasure and desire. The guy finally has fun." OR it's about breaking Snape's iron control, since the reader's project themselves on to Snape.

Those are both good reasons for enjoying Snape dubcon, I agree. The first (Harry making Snape lose control) doesn't actually do much for me personally, but I agree it's gratifying to see Snape have fun.

But there's a third (and probably fourth, and fifth . . .) flavor of Snape dubcon, and that's where Snape is the one coercing his partner. That is actually a flavor that does a lot for me, personally. And I think that here again Maelipstick's brilliant piece sheds light on why that's so: because we identify so strongly with Snape (I always project onto him and almost never onto Harry) and because he is always one-down in canon, always so screwed by two crazy masters and misunderstood and mistreated by everyone . . . well, it's a please for me to see him get his way, sometimes. For him to be in control, instead of always being done to (at least by other adults; I agree he's in control in the classroom).

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Part II, because I am nothing if not verbose
[info]regan_v
2009-01-08 04:05 pm UTC (link)
(edited, because I left out a paragraph)

And given how Snape is in canon, I actually find it terribly (and tragically) plausible that being in control of a dubcon encounter would be gratifying to Snape. That he's been screwed and distorted so badly by what he's been through that he would actually enjoy dubcon, where he's in control. Although he might also loathe himself afterwards, on some levels. Poor Snape.

Not to pimp myself, but I will, to make an example. My first long Snarry,
Consolation Prize is very hard core dubcon. Indeed, it's been interesting for me to see how many readers interpret it as rape (a minority do), how many see it as dubcon (the majority, I think) and how many aren't worried by the dubcon, since Harry ends up being in control, by the end. In the story, Snape forces Harry to marry him, because he has no other way to survive economically. Snape invokes a debt that Harry owes him, using an Unbreakable Vow that Harry swore with him. So Harry really has no choice.

But there are always complications; that's why it's dubcon, to me. Snape didn't want to take the Unbreakable Vow to begin with. He was willing to help Harry without taking any Vow at all. Harry had forced the Vow on Snape, since he was too suspicious to accept help unless Snape swore this Vow with him. So, the fact that Harry owes Snape this huge debt and is under a Vow is really Harry's fault to begin with. And Snape only initiates sex with Harry once, to consummate the marriage. After that, initiative is always with Harry. I enjoyed graying it up in those ways. That made it dubcon for me, but again, it didn't depend on any reader's POV or literary irony to make it dubcon. And some readers saw it as rape, and I couldn't argue that. But it's in a sort of gray zone of coercion, which I do think exists in RL.

Anyway, I think that we both enjoy dubcon for varying reasons. And there's no doubt that Snape lends himself particularly to dubcon, both as the one controlled and the one doing the controlling. Really thought-provoking meta, dear. Thank you so very much for creating this for me!

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Re: Part I, since of course this was thought-provoking
[info]schemingreader
2009-01-08 04:36 pm UTC (link)
I thought in Lovesong that although Harry is completely up front about his attraction (which seemed out of character, but I forgave it) that Snape is also attracted and interested and has some admiration for Harry--and does not want to show any of that. I reread the story last night, and there was a scene in which Harry insist that Snape give him a compliment during sex.

I do think there is a lot to say about Snape as the coercive partner. I wrote two stories in which he abuses his position as a teacher to have sex with Neville--though he also ascertains that Neville is actually interested and willing. There is so much in canon about what he's really willing or unwilling to do that I'm always interested in how he handles dub con from the power-holder's perspective. I've written more than one story in which he's really vehemently opposed to any quid pro quo in sexual relationships, also.

His consent and his will are ambiguous in canon, even after the big reveal in DH. How did he manage to get the necessary negative feelings against AD to use AK on him? If you read AD as a coercive bastard it's less of a stretch...

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[info]odogoddess
2009-01-10 04:02 am UTC (link)
There is also the incredible hubris in believing we know what is best for the poor boo. *pets blushing, scowling Sev*

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[info]schemingreader
2009-01-10 11:01 pm UTC (link)
Hee! the poor boo! You're so cute.

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[info]fanficforensics
2009-01-11 11:51 am UTC (link)
Fascinating discussion. This topic interests me because I just did a small experiment (part of a larger Ph.D research) comparing the contents of fanfics and Japanese fan comics (dojinshi) that pair Snape with James Potter, and some of the most interesting differences between fic and dojinshi narratives involved consent issues. Writeup about the whole thing at http://fanficforensics.livejournal.com/6644.html

One thing that's consistent in pretty much every JP/SS fic and dojinshi I compared is that James is the one taking the initiative in any sexual encounter, non-con or not non-con. One of the things that's not consistent -and is very revealing while we're on this topic, I suspect- is the point of view from which the stories are told. In fic, Snape is the narrator, with James butting in for only a few scenes over six fics. In dojinshi, it's the exact opposite: we see everything from James' point of view, and from Snape's on just a few pages throughout four dojinshi.

Is this actually true for the majority of fics in which Snape is the one being coerced? Are they generally told from Snape's point of view?

Also, I picked six fics about JP/SS from a little over a hundred samples, trying to keep my samples representative of the general tendencies in JP/SS, and there was a lot of dub-con and non-con there. Not surprise given the enmity between the two in canon, I suppose (though the Japanese writers definitely seem to think otherwise). Two or three of those more or less representative six fics were seriously non-con, involving pretty violent rape, with Snape deriving little or no pleasure from the encounters. They obviously weren't about making Snape feel pleasure (but still told from his point of view). What's the point of those stories, for readers? I myself didn't like them as much as the ones where Snape was made to feel pleasure, which is why I'm asking.

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